tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6531953775224262250.post7791451463981365255..comments2023-01-04T16:01:22.970+08:00Comments on Righteous... But Not Yet: How to Deny the ObviousJephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04904821318321521552noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6531953775224262250.post-34744224725698331722012-06-08T04:57:26.483+08:002012-06-08T04:57:26.483+08:00Tim,
First and foremost, I wanna thank you for dr...Tim,<br /><br />First and foremost, I wanna thank you for dropping by my blog. As to your question, of course I'd agree with you that the Traditionalist statement nowhere states that we seek God apart from the Holy Spirit or that salvation isn't only by and produced by God, yet it doesn't change the fact that the statement's position on biblical anthropology is clearly semi-Pelagian. Simple examination on the historical background of the semi-Pelian controversy will prove that.<br /><br />To give you a summary overview of what happened hundred years back, the debate began when St. Augustine prayed his most controversial prayer "Command what thou wilt and grant what thou commandest." A certain monk named Pelagius protested against this prayer and contended that such statement is a clear denial of man's being a morally free agent. In response, St. Augustine laid down his understanding of inherent depravity of all mankind because of Adam's sin. He argued that we, as fallen sinners, cannot will or do any good thing apart from a prior working of grace. Pelagius answered, "No! If we ought, we can! God's law is an irrefutable proof that we have untainted moral liberty." He contended that men good from within from birth and we all possesses the natural capacity of will to choose good. The only grace necessary for man to be able to exercise this capacity is the external preaching of the Law. To this, St. Augustine responded and argued that the Law by itself will not bring us any good unless we are aided by God's grace from within, and not only externally. Eventually, Pelagianism was condemned by the Church as heresy. <br /><br />However, years after the condemnation of Pelagius, a new system of thought became prevalent among many churches. It is a compromise between Pelagianism and Augustinianism called semi-Pelagianism. It says that "yes, we are all fallen in Adam, but Sin did not totally destroy our moral liberty. We are morally sick, but we can choose to believe & repent, but we will have a hard time obeying the law apart from God's assistance. According to Vitalis of Carthage, the very first semi-Pelagian that engaged with St. Augustine, man does not need any prevenient internal divine enablement from God because he is already able to will, choose, accept, or respond to God's offer of grace. The only "grace" necessary for man to have the chance to exercise his freedom to believe is the outward proclamation of the Gospel.<br /><br />At the end, the Church re-affirmed its position against Pelagianism and rejected semi-Pelagianism as beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. The Council of Orange affirmed that,<br /><br />1) that Adam's sin didn't affect himself alone, but all his posterity as well,<br />2) that Adam's sin brought corruption of nature to all mankind,<br />3) that God does not merely wait for our free response to His call, but He himself grants the willingness and ability to do so,<br />4) that man's moral liberty was not only injured, but it was completely impaired, by Sin. <br /><br />Therefore, in light of these historical facts (see Rev. Joseph Milner's The History of the Church of Christ, Ch. III, p. 328.), it is clear that the Traditionalist position that Adam's Sin "did not result to an incapacitation on any person's freewill" is clearly semi-Pelagian. <br /><br />I speak this in love.<br /><br />-JephJephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04904821318321521552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6531953775224262250.post-59327652884373266222012-06-08T01:38:12.389+08:002012-06-08T01:38:12.389+08:00Jeph,
I think a few simple answers can solve this ...Jeph,<br />I think a few simple answers can solve this question: Where in the statement do we say that man "seeks God" apart from the Holy Spirit? Where in the statement do we deny that salvation is only by and produced of God?<br /><br />The answer? No where!Tim Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10885623376514366024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6531953775224262250.post-26851497151158280852012-06-06T20:58:24.304+08:002012-06-06T20:58:24.304+08:00Rick,
If you label your position as "Traditi...Rick,<br /><br />If you label your position as "Traditionalism", so be it, but I would contend that your position is in the final analysis essentially semi-Pelagian as plain examination of history will show. If that's not the case, then please prove it with your upcoming scholarly response. <br /><br />God bless!<br /><br />In Christ,<br />-JephJephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04904821318321521552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6531953775224262250.post-60564737637116656852012-06-06T20:28:50.829+08:002012-06-06T20:28:50.829+08:00Jeph,
Thank you for your kind and gracious respon...Jeph,<br /><br />Thank you for your kind and gracious response to my denial of your charges of heresy. Since my understanding of history reveals that John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned at the stake for his heresy, I am quite pleased that you have stopped far short of that in merely writing an entire post directed against my denial. <br /><br />It will not surprise you that I also deny that I have (1) ignored history, or (2) created my own definition of semi-Pelagianism -- having borrowed it from a Calvinist paper citing a description in Hodges Systematic Theology. <br /><br />I appreciate especially your final question, "If this is not semi-Pelagianism, what is it?"<br /><br />The answer to your question is: "Traditionalism." While I believe it is possible to distinguish Traditionalism from Semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism and Calvinism, I will be the first to admit to you that my simple effort is not at all the best that Traditionalism has to offer in explaining itself.<br /><br />As John the Baptist declared that "One is coming who is greater than I," let me assure you, as I have been assured, that a more scholarly response is forthcoming. I look forward to passing this torch to another so you may charge someone possessing theological stature with denying the obvious, rather than wasting your charges on the likes of me.Rick Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09874862957087277168noreply@blogger.com